Dear Freinds ,
I was in Four different Govt organisations before taking Voluntary retirement . I Have come across this type of Bureacratic or British mindsetÂ of All our officials right From top to Bottom . When the Wisdom of the parliament When During the process of the Drafting of the RTI act took 153 Revisions and Redoing nowhere and at No point there was Contest ot conflict of Interest and interpretation , nor there was an Suggestion of a Corollary or Requisite that the designated PIO should Call for demand production of an ID Card or proof of Citizen ship geographical or Not . In Such a sitiuation There should Be No compromise by any Person Calling them "enlightened" & "activists" to succumb to such Demands of absurd Nature From Doubting toms .
In Fact When the RBI Issued Release of FARMERS GREENCARD , a Passport to Quick and on Spot Renewal of thier Crop loans (Khariff , rabi, Summer) One Person Sitting in an AC office Wanted that Simplified Application for FGC be Tagged with another Document
virtually Stating that he is A Farmer from the Gramsevak .
These Type of Demand May seem Insignificant to certain persons but Infact Are Rituals in a sense and will get Mired by Lots & lots of subsequent Processing QueriesÂ Which is why The act speaks of time Bound Parting Of information .
If one goes through Page 12 Para 14 , 15 , 16 of the Delhi high court Orders in Mujibur Rehman Vs CIC pronunced by J.RavindraBhatt , the implications and unwarrented manifistetions of such silly and Absurd interpretions or Rather Userping Powers of the Legislation will Come to fore .
Therefore My Argument Goes to the Root cause and it Demands Why in the case You are Demanding the Proof When you are Not empowered to seek oneÂ and if You find that you are qualifing to your Perception of Not being the citizen , It is your responsibility to Use Section 8 Suitably Â
N vikramsimha , KRIA Koota, #12 Sumeru Sir M N Krishna Rao Road , Basvangudi < Bangalore 560004.
--- On Mon, 26/9/11, JSD PANI <email@example.com> wrote:
From: JSD PANI <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: Re: [HumJanenge] RTI reply - a new trend
Date: Monday, 26 September, 2011, 12:46 PM
As Shri Sant Mathur rightly puts it, nothing great is achieved in dealing with such insignificant issues.Â
I dont want to take this forum to discuss elaborately the difference between persons living in a geographical area called a NATION and a Citizenship of that NATION. There could be a CITIZENSHIP of a particular NATION without even living in that particular geographical area called a Â NATION.Â
While drafting aÂ legislation,Â the Parliament is expected to use all its wisdom. Information under RTI is made available to only CITIZENS of India and not to all those living in INDIA for the reasons that the NATION dont want to and dont need to part theÂ information to other than the citizens of this NATION. Hope the matter is made more clear now.
By advancing this argument, I am not supporting PIO's asking the applicants to provide proof of citizenship. Whatever the IDs refered by Shri Vikramsimha though not provide declaration that one is Â a CITIZEN, but these IDs can be obtained only by citizens of India and thus establish the citizenship.
Any way I appreciate such discussions which helps us sharpen our knowledge ..
On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 7:18 PM, Sant Mathur <email@example.com> wrote:
Is there anything great achieved in dealing with insigificant issues,like the one about theÂ need for presentingÂ ID proof of citizenship,which,as per the letter of the law in strict sense,the PIO is entitled to seek,and which,per chance,the PIOs elsewhere have not sought?
Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â On the contrary there is lesson to be learnt that there should be holisic preparation in presenting the RTI request to defeat any dilatory tactis.Probably that checklist has not been proactivelÂ formally/ properly been designed and shared.
Â Â Pl appreciate the management principle:
Â Â Â Â Â Â Keep it simple silly.
s p mathur IPS DHP retd
BE MBA PhD(Knowledge Management)
On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 10:49 AM, JSD PANI <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
I have read the mails. Let us not go with emotions. Activism is not emotion, thoughÂ emotion triggers activism.
Assume that PIO is asking for proof of citizenship as a delay tactics or to make the applicant frustrate and refrain him from Â making applications. Well. At the same time as a responsible citizensÂ we need to respect the legslation. Legislation say thatÂ information can be obtained by the citizens of India. Â Hence it becomes our responsibility to provide proof of citizenship when demanded by the PIO. There are ID's to establish citizenship.
On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Vikram Simha <email@example.com> wrote:
Dear Captain ,
RTI Act Works on the Idea & Ideal of the Citizen of This Country Being the Master and All Public servants , Servants of this Master . democracy is For ,by & To the people .
There fore If you Understand this Great Principle and Practice it , There should Not Be any Address as To the "PLEASE" Because the Public servant Works at The pleasure of the Master not Vice -versa .
If There are people Who want to scuttle the Act , We Should Not surrender to Such Persons But Fight them Effuciently
The question of One Being of or From same department , Kith Or kin Does not arise .
By Your Prefix I Understand you yourself Must be an Ex service man and Are kindly aware of the Age old proverb "every thing is Fair in love & War "
Since RTI act 2 005 Has a Preamble Which Speaks of "Containing Corruption and Hold the Govt's & its instrumentalities Accountable to the GovernedÂ andÂ If Relavation of Information in actual Practice is Likely to conflict ..... etc and therefore it is Expedient to provide for Furnishing Certain Information to Citizen who desire to have it .
Therefore There is a conflict hereÂ of the actual practiceÂ and RTI Act 2006 Prevails .
Here as Per the Mail The seeker or requester is an retd Officer and He will Not be in possetion of the ID Card , since He will have surrenderd it at the time retirement .
Also If You Read the ID Card Will There be a mention or Any Mark , Etching or Any Indication that the Card Holder is an Citizen of India .
If I am the PIO i will Certainly Query this Next on your submission of the IDÂ BecauseÂ i am a dubting tom and want to carry effient Opertation of My JOB
Due Have any Counter to this line of argument
N vikramsimha , KRIA Katte , #12 Sumeru Sir M N Krishna Rao Road , Basvangudi < Bangalore 560004.
--- On Wed, 21/9/11, capt beniwal <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
From: capt beniwal <email@example.com>
Subject: Re: [HumJanenge] RTI reply - a new trend
Date: Wednesday, 21 September, 2011, 4:54 PM
please send a photo copy of your id which prooves that you are a citizen of india. please remember there are plenty of people who wants to scuttle the Act, frustrate an applicant so that he/she stop asking questions, particularly if one belongs to same deptt. Â Â
--- On Tue, 20/9/11, Mathre Rangarajan <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
From: Mathre Rangarajan <email@example.com>
Subject: [HumJanenge] RTI reply - a new trend
To: "Y Humjanenge - google" <firstname.lastname@example.org>, "Y Humjanenge - yahoo" <humjanenge-hHKSG33TihhqA26CCmlJIf8email@example.com>, "Y Adhikar" <adhikaar-hHKSG33Tihh9OSfirstname.lastname@example.org>, "Y Anna Hazare" <email@example.com>, "Y Aridman" <***@nishanjustice.org>, "Y C K Jam" <firstname.lastname@example.org>, "Y rti_india" <***@googlegroups.com>, "Y Rti$empoerrment - google" <***@googlegroups.com>, "Y rti4empowerment - yahoo" <email@example.com>, "Y Rti_India" <firstname.lastname@example.org>, "Y Thekirti Karnataka Intiative RTI" <email@example.com>, "Y RTI_India - yahoo" <RTI_indiafirstname.lastname@example.org>
Date: Tuesday, 20 September, 2011, 3:06 PM
(retired Group General Manager ONGC)
B 2 â 301, SRIRAM SPANDHANA,
Bangalore â 560037.
Phone: 25227955, mobile 9945091581
e-mail: email@example.com / firstname.lastname@example.org
Dated 20th September 2011
Dear friends / RTI activists,
I asked for some information from M/s Chennai Petroleum Corporation Ltd, a Government of India Undertaking under Ministry of Petroleum under RTI Act. I am enclosing copy of letter for information of all.
The gist of letter is as followes:
In compliance with Sec 3 of Right to Information Act 2005, we request you to kindly send us the proof for citizenship like a copy of Election Identity Card, or a copy of tje Passport issued by Govt. of India or any document duly attested by a Notory Public / Executive magistrate to eable us to procede further.
I have sought information from many Cental Government Department, State Government Departments, and Public Sector Undertaking etc and so for noneÂ .have asked for proof of my Citizenship. This appear to be uncalled for and illigalÂ new trend.
I would very much appreciate some adviseÂ - how should I procede further.Â
warm regards / rangarajan